In an almost 50-year-old letter from Ginsberg to Beat historian Barry Miles the poet seems to suggest Lennon was virtually unaware of 'Howl' as late as the mid-1970s. How could that be?
Interesting stuff I am fascinated by reading this. But I have the feeling that John Lennon never took the beats as serious as for example Donovon. Lennon made fun of everything if you read Neville Club in his book In His Own Write it seems that he just laughs about that beat scene. The other thing is that Lennon never liked Jazz where the beats came from. And his last word on Allen Ginsberg in his book Skywriting by word of mouth reads like this: 'Allen Ginsberg who if he wasn't lying on the floor ohming was embarrassing the fuck out of everyone he could corner by chanting something he called poetry very loudly in their ears (and out the other)'.
Good and fair points! Lennon was a difficult individual to read, insecure and defensive, massively creative but also with a destructive streak. I can see him, certainly in the Hamburg days and early 1960s, taking something of a derisive view of that kind arty existentialism which the Beats seemed to personify…
Poet David Cope says: ‘Hi Simon A few notes: Lennon was as much as smart ass as Mick Jagger, pulling the legs of press and anyone else who got too close. You correctly spotted his BS about not knowing who William Blake was, but he also had a literary background--the spoken words "sit you down, father, rest you" on I Am the Walrus come from Willy the Shake's King Lear, as the blinded Gloucester is ready to give up all hope near the end of the play, and his son Edgar, restored to him at last, speaks these words to him. It's the last time Gloucester appears in the play, and the existential angst of those moments fits quite well with John's song. He not only knew Shakespeare, but knew to choose lines from WS that would fit in his song. Secondly, it'd be interesting to follow any sources that might be familiar with Allen's experience of the Beatles at the Portland Coliseum (see Planet News section of his Collected Poems)--per "Big Beat" (March 11, 1965) and "Portland Coliseum," ( August 27, 1965), he was obviously amazed by them, especially given that his "Who Be Kind To" is from the same time period, and a deeper meditation perhaps borne of their influence, "that a new kind of man has come to his bliss" (this poem in London, June 8, 1965). I wonder, then, if he met them at one of these two concerts or afterwards, and if indeed they were aware that he was in the audience. Last, my wife Sue was insistent via her childhood readings of Tiger Beat and other teen rock and roll mags in US that "Beat" referred to the savage beat of rock and roll, notto the Beats.’
David – I love your knowledge and engagement on these topics: a real poet with a true rock head on his shoulders. Thanks for those insightful remarks. How do you think a figure like Ginsberg would have taken the insult that Lennon barely knew who he actually was and did before the radio static parted to reveal ‘Howl’ on air?
David Cope: ‘Simon – Allen wasn't fazed by much--critically assertive in poetry and performance, but otherwise comments like that generally rolled off his back. I still miss his presence in my life--superb sense of humor.’
Pat Thomas, author of the Jerry Rubin biography Did It!, Listen, Whitey!, a history of radical black politics and popular music, and the forthcoming Ginsberg book Material Wealth (PowerHouse Books, 2023), says: ‘My comment to your wonderful article - Lennon (like many people I’ve met in my life) was probably aware that Ginsberg (and Howl) were cool, hip, progressive, etc and dug it on principle but hadn’t really spent any time reading or listening to it - that’s my theory - I’ve dozens of folks like this - they even drop Ginsberg’s name as someone they admire.’
Interesting stuff I am fascinated by reading this. But I have the feeling that John Lennon never took the beats as serious as for example Donovon. Lennon made fun of everything if you read Neville Club in his book In His Own Write it seems that he just laughs about that beat scene. The other thing is that Lennon never liked Jazz where the beats came from. And his last word on Allen Ginsberg in his book Skywriting by word of mouth reads like this: 'Allen Ginsberg who if he wasn't lying on the floor ohming was embarrassing the fuck out of everyone he could corner by chanting something he called poetry very loudly in their ears (and out the other)'.
Good and fair points! Lennon was a difficult individual to read, insecure and defensive, massively creative but also with a destructive streak. I can see him, certainly in the Hamburg days and early 1960s, taking something of a derisive view of that kind arty existentialism which the Beats seemed to personify…
Poet David Cope says: ‘Hi Simon A few notes: Lennon was as much as smart ass as Mick Jagger, pulling the legs of press and anyone else who got too close. You correctly spotted his BS about not knowing who William Blake was, but he also had a literary background--the spoken words "sit you down, father, rest you" on I Am the Walrus come from Willy the Shake's King Lear, as the blinded Gloucester is ready to give up all hope near the end of the play, and his son Edgar, restored to him at last, speaks these words to him. It's the last time Gloucester appears in the play, and the existential angst of those moments fits quite well with John's song. He not only knew Shakespeare, but knew to choose lines from WS that would fit in his song. Secondly, it'd be interesting to follow any sources that might be familiar with Allen's experience of the Beatles at the Portland Coliseum (see Planet News section of his Collected Poems)--per "Big Beat" (March 11, 1965) and "Portland Coliseum," ( August 27, 1965), he was obviously amazed by them, especially given that his "Who Be Kind To" is from the same time period, and a deeper meditation perhaps borne of their influence, "that a new kind of man has come to his bliss" (this poem in London, June 8, 1965). I wonder, then, if he met them at one of these two concerts or afterwards, and if indeed they were aware that he was in the audience. Last, my wife Sue was insistent via her childhood readings of Tiger Beat and other teen rock and roll mags in US that "Beat" referred to the savage beat of rock and roll, notto the Beats.’
David – I love your knowledge and engagement on these topics: a real poet with a true rock head on his shoulders. Thanks for those insightful remarks. How do you think a figure like Ginsberg would have taken the insult that Lennon barely knew who he actually was and did before the radio static parted to reveal ‘Howl’ on air?
David Cope: ‘Simon – Allen wasn't fazed by much--critically assertive in poetry and performance, but otherwise comments like that generally rolled off his back. I still miss his presence in my life--superb sense of humor.’
Pat Thomas, author of the Jerry Rubin biography Did It!, Listen, Whitey!, a history of radical black politics and popular music, and the forthcoming Ginsberg book Material Wealth (PowerHouse Books, 2023), says: ‘My comment to your wonderful article - Lennon (like many people I’ve met in my life) was probably aware that Ginsberg (and Howl) were cool, hip, progressive, etc and dug it on principle but hadn’t really spent any time reading or listening to it - that’s my theory - I’ve dozens of folks like this - they even drop Ginsberg’s name as someone they admire.’